Old Gods and New Pagans
"Old Gods & New Pagans" is a welcoming space for new and curious pagans, heathens, and animists to explore the basics of paganism. Rooted in an Animist perspective, this podcast takes an inclusive approach, covering topics relevant to a variety of pagan paths. Each episode breaks down complex ideas into simple, easy-to-understand language, with guest discussions, stories, and insights. Whether you're just starting your pagan journey or looking to learn more, join us as we dive into the wisdom of the old gods and the practices of modern pagans.
Old Gods and New Pagans
Ep 8: Odin's Hidden Depths and Ancient Secrets
What if Odin is more than the wise, guiding figure we've come to know? Prepare to uncover the layers of a god who defies simple categorization. On this episode of Old Gods and New Pagans, I, Matt Holloway, invite you to explore the untamed and complex nature of Odin beyond the pop culture portrayals. From his name, which is rooted in "fury" or "frenzy," to his unsettling sacrifices for wisdom, including the loss of an eye at Mimir's Well, Odin's story is one of relentless pursuit and profound contradictions. We journey through his controversial use of Seiðr magic, traditionally taboo for men, revealing his unyielding quest for power and knowledge that challenges conventional narratives.
As we navigate the complexities of deities, we emphasize the necessity of acknowledging both their virtues and flaws. Even gods possess multifaceted personalities, not unlike humans. By examining Odin's obsession with war and his thirst for wisdom, we discuss the importance of embracing these contradictions. His willingness to share wisdom, despite his darker traits, offers a more nuanced understanding of his character. Join us in this exploration of the enigmatic Odin, where we challenge the simplified depictions and celebrate the rich, layered stories of mythology.
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Hey there, welcome to Old Gods and New Pagans. I'm your host, matt Holloway, and today we're talking about everyone's favorite one-eyed wanderer no, not Nick Fury. We're diving into Odin and, trust me, marvel doesn't tell you the half of it. Before we get started, I need to give you folks a bit of a content warning. This episode contains discussions of violence, sexual assault, sacrifice and manipulation. We're going to look at the historical record honestly, which means dealing with some pretty dark stuff. If you need to skip this one, I completely understand. Come back next week and we'll talk about something a little bit more lighthearted. Still with us. Alright, let's dive in.
Speaker 1:When most people think of Odin these days, they typically picture Anthony Hopkins in a fancy eyepatch, as some kind of wise old grandfather figure who rules over Asgard. In short, odin is the Allfather and that image is partially correct. But the title comes with some pretty heavy baggage. Let's start with some of the basics, because even those are kind of wild. Our guy Odin went by many names Wodan, woden, odin and, fun fact, that's actually where we get Wednesday from. It's Woden's Day. But here's something interesting His name actually comes from a different meaning. It's believed to have come from the word like fury or frenzy, which, as we go through this, you kind of understand where that comes from. But think about that for a second. His name means frenzy. His name means frenzy the supposedly wise father god is named after being in a violent rage. That should tell you something about who we're dealing with here Before we go any further.
Speaker 1:My personal beliefs I try to separate from the podcast, but the way I look at Odin and the way I look at the Aesir versus Vanir, the Jotun and all the different tribes of the Norse gods is that you know, the Aesir that Odin really is a part of, we're like trying to conquer the chaotic forces of nature, like there was human nature and civilization and things like that, whereas Odin, you know, represents his frenzy or fury, he also represented wisdom and knowledge beyond that. So while the Aesir were conquering that primal forces of nature, I feel that Odin was also trying to conquer that within himself with a representation. Take that as you will. That's just the way I've perceived it and the way I interpret it. You know some of these old stories, but just keep that in mind. So one thing that you know some symbolism that's always connected with Odin would kind of just like hit it real quick and get it out of the way.
Speaker 1:He has this two ravens that usually sit on his shoulder or nearby. Those ravens are called Huginn and Muninn, or Thought and Memory. They're Odin's kind of eyes in the world, flying out each day to bring him news of what's happening in the Nine Realms. But speaking of eyes, that brings us to our first, really kind of odd story. Picture this You're standing at the base of Yggdrasil, the World Tree, a big, great tree that connects all nine realms, and before you is Mimir's Well containing all the wisdom in the universe. But there's a catch the Well's Guardian won't let you drink unless you give up something precious. What do you do? Well, if you're Odin, you straight out, pluck out your eye, toss it in, splash, uh. There goes. Depth perception, odin. Good job, bro. Uh. But hey, infinite wisdom, right. Except here's the thing this wasn't really the noble sacrifice that we've come to interpret this as. This was really just Odin being Odin, odin being obsessed with gaining knowledge at any cost, and this was one of his extreme examples, but it probably wasn't his most extreme example.
Speaker 1:Let me read you something from the Havamal and then we'll kind of go into it a little bit and these are supposedly Odin's own words when he went looking for more knowledge. I know that I hung on a windy tree nine long nights, wounded with a spear dedicated to Odin myself to myself on that tree of which no man knows. Yeah, you heard that right. He hung himself from Yggdrasil for nine days and nights, wounded with his own spear, just to learn the secrets of the runes. And while he was up there, he wasn't just hanging around Sorry, couldn't resist that one. I like little puns.
Speaker 1:He was practicing Seyther, a form of magic that was considered shameful for men because it was considered a woman's magic, that even the gods got mocked for using it. Think about that, even in a society that celebrated masculine violence, there were still forms of power considered too transgressive for men to touch. But Odin, he, didn't care about those taboos, he wanted power in all its forms. Again, he was obsessed with power, knowledge and wisdom. So we look at that story where he hung himself on that tree to gain knowledge. So the norns would write in runes on the tree like predicting the future, fate you know past, present, future and like, um, well, just fate. They were writing out everyone's essentially life stories. And Odin wanted that knowledge for himself. So he sacrificed himself to himself on that tree and we kind of get a little parallel with Jesus sacrificing himself to himself, you know, in a similar way, but to gain the knowledge of those runes. And yes, he did pass those on to the people of Midgard, but at its core he wanted that knowledge for himself.
Speaker 1:Moving on, let's talk about something that Odin, you know he was ashamed of using the save magic, but there was something he was not ashamed of, something he was really dedicated to, and that was war. Again, he was not just the god of wisdom and knowledge, but he was also a god of war, because this is where things get kind of interesting, and by interesting I mean a little disturbing. Okay, so this might upset some of the Valhalla bros out there, but you know, valhalla, the awesome warrior heaven, where brave fighters go to feast and fight. Yeah, well, that's not entirely accurate On the surface. Sure, that's what happens, but that idea is essentially something kind of like military propaganda in its own way.
Speaker 1:Odin wasn't just collecting warriors because he was honored by their bravery, he was really building an army for Ragnarok, a war he already knew, according to prophecy, that he was already going to lose. So let that sink in. He's convincing people to die gloriously in battle just so that they can join his army for a war he knows is doomed. And then you think about within Valhalla it's just feasting and fighting and you get to be brave and courageous and warriors and stuff. But the reality of it is they would fight to the death to get better at killing each other and the whole purpose of the feast was to give them more strength and to revitalize them so that they could fight once more and die again and over and over, every single day until Ragnarok, just so that these warriors could get better at killing and dying.
Speaker 1:Think about that and then we can go into more of like, out of Valhalla before Valhalla, into like, the earthly followers, and these were commonly called berserkers. These weren't just tough warriors, these were people who worked themselves into such a frenzy Remember Odin's name, meaning fury or frenzy. They would work themselves into such a frenzy that they would do things like bite their shields, bite other people, howl like animals, charge into battle completely naked or wearing the skins of bears or wolves or other animals. They believe that they were filled with, say, odin's spirit to give them that frenzy. And given what we know of Odin. Maybe it's true, maybe they were filled with Odin's spirit. Some archaeological evidence suggests that maybe it was hallucinogenic or other narcotic-induced frenzies that they had. Or it could have all just been psychological, just hyping themselves up like a pep rally before a big game sort of deal. But a little more extreme than that.
Speaker 1:We do have archaeological evidence of these warrior cults, for lack of a better term. They've found rings inscribed with Odin's name, spear points in ritual sites, and they've even found some evidence of ritual human sacrifices to Odin. These are rare, few and far between, but they have shown or they found, like in the temple of Uppsala, males of each species. Nine males representing Odin's nine days of sacrifice, including humans, were hanged in Odin's honor. And yeah, that number nine keeps coming up in a lot of these stories. The nine realms, nine nights on the tree, nine sacrifices. It's sort of an association with Odin.
Speaker 1:Now, something that most modern retellings kind of gloss over or skip over in stories of Odin is Odin as the great manipulator. This guy had more disguises than a master spy. To be just realistic, he'd show up as either an old wanderer which was his favorite a fairy man, a warrior, whatever he needed to do to just get what he wanted. And really there's only a few things of what he wanted, and it was knowledge, power and wisdom. He even dressed as a woman to gain the knowledge of save magic from Freya and kind of tricked her into teaching him save. Then we have the story of Rinda. Odin wanted a son who would avenge Baldur's death. When Rinda refused his advances, he didn't take no for an answer. He used magic to make her sick, then disguised himself as a healer woman to get close to her, and I think you can guess where this story goes. The medieval sources treat this as just another example of Odin's cunning. Today we have other words for it and we won't go into that just for triggering's sake for some people, but just know that he was a manipulator and he would do anything to get what he wanted, and what he wanted was a son at that time. The same pattern shows up in the story of Billings' daughter, where he uses deception and magic to try to seduce a woman who has rejected him more than once.
Speaker 1:These aren't just stories about God's love affairs. They're stories about power, about consent and about the ways powerful figures do abuse their authority. But here's another kicker about Odin. He knows how it all ends, thanks to his wisdom. He knows about Ragnarok. He knows he'll be swallowed by Fenrir the wolf. He knows that the gods will fall. And what does he do with this knowledge? He keeps playing his games. He keeps collecting his warriors, he keeps manipulating and scheming and sacrificing, All for a future he knows he cannot change. So what do we make of all this in the modern world?
Speaker 1:Well, first off, we need to acknowledge that our main sources, the Eddas and Sagas, were written down possibly even centuries after these stories were originally told, so they may have altered some details. Archaeological evidence backs up a lot of what has been told of these Odinistic cults and their practices, but the truth is we don't know 100% of these stories and their meanings, just because things do get lost in time, like an ancient version of the game Telephone, where you whisper in somebody's ear something and it goes around the room and by the time it comes back it's altered in some way. And I believe a lot of these stories were done that same way or taught through a lens. And especially when you're translating from one language to another, some words might not fit exactly, so they'll use a different word and then when it gets translated again that word might change a little bit, but to the core of it all the themes are still there in these stories and it does paint Odin in this, not an all light picture and not an all dark picture, but really shades of gray. He has some light and dark to him, so it makes sense to understand him in that sense. And then we jump into modern pop culture because, wow, did Marvel clean him up? Good, they sure did Not. That I blame them.
Speaker 1:It's kind of hard to make a family-friendly movie about a god who practices sex magic and collects warriors for essentially what amounts to a suicide mission. Wagner didn't really help either turning Odin into this noble, tragic figure in his operas. But the real Odin of the myths is way more complex and way more disturbing. Modern pagans have various ways of dealing with Odin's complexity. Some focus on his wisdom-seeking aspects, seeing the problematic parts as later additions. Others engage with him as a challenging but important teacher, and some choose not to work with him at all, which, given what we've covered today, is completely understandable for a lot of people. The thing about Odin is that he shows us something important about power and wisdom, sometimes the pursuit of knowledge comes with a heavy price. Sometimes leaders aren't good people, even if they are effective, and sometimes the gods themselves can be both fascinating and frightening. That brings us to the end of today's journey into the dark and complex world of Othin. Next week we'll be lightening things up a little bit. We may look at something in a little bit more natural sense and the roles without giving too much information, and the roles of modern practices and how you can kind of go with that.
Speaker 1:If you've enjoyed this episode, please, supporting the channel, check us out online. I will be creating a Discord server soon to go along with this, to open up for some discussions and maybe even a Patreon. Um, let me know what you would like to hear. Um, maybe even some exclusive content. Uh, full notes, because a lot of the information that are right up for these episodes doesn't actually make it into the episode. Because I want to try to keep these episodes definitely below 30 minutes. I kind of aim for the 15 to 20 minute mark on a lot of this. So some of my notes don't make it in. Maybe I'll start posting the full notes of everything I research for these episodes so that I can give you a little bit more information. If you're interested in learning more, I'll put some works down in the show notes, including, like the Poetic Edda Snorri's Prose Edda other works on Germanic religions and just a few other writings that kind of mention Odin and kind of give you a little bit more insight on everything that's going here.
Speaker 1:Until next time, just remember, the gods are not simple. They're not these glorified beings not all benevolent. They're just like people. They have multiple aspects to their personality. They have many facets to who they are and keep that in mind. Don't completely shut one deity down just because they have some aspects of the personality that you may not like, because there are other aspects to the personality that are very good. Like we talked about a lot of the bad with Odin, but he valued wisdom and knowledge above all else and he shared that wisdom and knowledge. So that's definitely a good thing to think about when you consider Odin as a god. I just ask everyone to stay curious, just like Odin, keep researching and try not to lose any eyes in the pursuit of wisdom.
